[music] Justin Bieber, the ideal of kpop (?)

Let’s have it out! I like some of Justin Bieber’s songs. I was in the Zara dressing room the other month, and I heard Love Me and I was instantly hooked. I then watched the music video, and became convinced that Justin Bieber is the epitome of what kpop tries to achieve.

First, kpop tries to hook you into their fantasy– SHINee is waiting to surprise you with a huge teddy bear, engagement ring, weird-thing-Taemin-drew-on, Boyfriend is asking you to be their “girlfriends”, in SNSD’s Genie a pair of disembodied male hands are led around while SNSD coos “I’m genie for you boy”, etc.– and so Mr. Bieber also tries to hook you into his fantasy, though in a slightly different fashion. Despite his perhaps more posh surroundings (like Usher’s pad as we are led to believe in One Time), Mr. Bieber looks frighteningly normal.

yep. suburbia swag! MTV VMAs '09

He looks like any other mall rat in suburbia, with a slightly emo haircut, hoodies, shiny smile, the favoring of solid colors, high tops, pants on the low side, and little boy swagger. Trust me, I was raised in New Jersey, I have seen countless guys like that; they exist everywhere. Though there is a Justin Bieber ‘look’, there is nothing intrinsically special about his wardrobe. Whatever he wears a guy can just stroll down to American Apparel and imitate. Also, the lead girls in his music videos are also frighteningly normal– not blue-eyed blondes but rather stock preteen brunettes.

His music video for Baby was set in a bowling alley. Sure, it may be a bit more tricked out than the average bowling alley, but it still has the same cheesy quality that everyone who has gone to a bowling alley has experienced. Mr. Bieber’s fantasy is not one elaborately constructed but rather one so normal that anyone who has gone bowling, gone to a pool party, ever even glanced at suburbia, can pretty much imagine and insert themselves in appropriately without trouble.

Mr. Bieber actually bowling.

Second, kpop tries to be cute and innocent. You may have the spitting image of sex in one moment but that is always immediately reversed, either through the release of a sentimental ballad or appearances on variety shows (that is how we all know TOP is really a dork). I am almost a little embarrassed to say, Mr. Bieber is extraordinarily cute; he makes heart signs with abandon, and his smile is really just shy-boy-next-door, well-meaning and soft. He gives off the sense that he has not quite grown into his boots, but he still has the confidence and swagger– if played the right way, overconfidence in this sense is actually pretty adorable. In his Love Me music video, he runs around wrapped in toilet paper, trying to shoot hoops backwards, making funny faces– being a general teenage dork.

By ‘innocent’, I mean he did not go the Miley Cyrus route to stardom, getting mixed up in drugs and partying. He also chose to date relatively pious Selena Gomez, instead of choosing someone like, say, Miley Cyrus. Plenty of child celebrities have burned out before age 17, and it is actually pretty impressive that Mr. Bieber has not had even one dash of black to his name thus far. I really commend him for this and I hope he will continue to be a good role model in midst of the drugs-and-sex glamorized veneer that Hollywood still manages to have.

I can't believe I took the time to compile this, either.

Third, kpop aims for catchy music. Note I did not say “good music”, they are only looking for “catchy.” Give yourself the test of Mr. Bieber’s catchiness: try to hum one of his songs. I am betting that for this blog’s demographics.. wait for it.. 100% of you can hum something of his! You probably know the chorus words too.

I think for most people who dislike Justin Bieber, they cannot stand his pre-adolescent voice, which sounds feminine at times. As to that, if there is one thing kpop has taught me, as long as you have a catchy hook and a bucket of autotune, you do not need a good voice at all. Moreover, I have no problem with a male that sounds like a female. A voice is a voice. So, Mr. Bieber’s voice does not affect me.

Overall, these three things– fantasy, innocence / cuteness, catchiness– merge and produce what is most envied in kpop: an extremely large and crazy fanbase. Even Justin Bieber has his noona and ahjumma admirers; apparently 20% of his fans are over 41, the so-called “Bieber Boomers” or the fans that actually work and make monies and can buy Justin Bieber merchandise for themselves and their female brethren to oblivion.

What amazes me the most is that Mr. Bieber is just one person. Quite obvious, but not everyone is bound to find his type physically attractive; we might skip over Siwon for Kyuhyun or Taemin for Onew. We might prefer someone who sings well to someone who dances well. Yet, Beliebers all have one diehard preference for well, Mr. Bieber.

Preference is a mysterious thing.

One last thing, Justin Bieber actually has talent. He can sing well live, right from debut (more than we can say for debut Taemin/Minho), he actively plays instruments, and has started to co-write the majority of his songs. Ultimately, Mr. Bieber has the power to stay on the pop scene for a while, contrasted with the transience and often musically-clueless performers of kpop.

All things considered, I believe that Mr. Bieber is actually beyond the epitome of kpop. For without his agency, he is still something, and Mr. Bieber’s name will go on. In Korea, the opposite is sadly true; looking at JYJ, leaving SM was a debilitating setback to their careers; Jaejoong, Yoochun, and Junsu may never get back to their TVXQ heights of success as they are quietly boycotted in awards shows, variety shows, radio, etc. Without a powerful agency backing them, they are a shadow of their once very loud presence; it is a sad, but true fact. In kpop, to be the epitome, idols must fit into the agency’s desired mold perfectly, and thrown away without so much as a fuss when their run is over. The agency lives on, but the stars fade away.

Side note: One of the things that most irks me are people who insist on hating on Justin Bieber; it may have been cool two years ago, but let us please move on and acknowledge that Mr. Bieber has already hit puberty, and all things considered, Baby is a really great song to dance and karaoke to. In fact, at the only frat party I went to this entire semester, when Baby came on, guys and girls were screaming the lyrics and bopping their heads.

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20 thoughts on “[music] Justin Bieber, the ideal of kpop (?)

  1. Hm… very interesting post. I generally agree with everything you’ve said, though I’m waiting for an angry fangirl to appear and try to shoot you down (not sure if that would be possible with all the logic and evidence you’ve laid down).

    I still feel that there is a definite difference between Justin Bieber and K-Pop groups, for example when I try to imagine Bieber performing something like “Lucifer” or “Ring Ding Dong” I get this really awkward, unattractive image in my mind. While perhaps both Bieber and K-Pop groups aim to be innocent and cute, K-Pop groups seem to pull off more mature songs more convincingly. I suppose I don’t see Bieber’s “confidence and swagger” that you mentioned in this post, but that may be just me.

    Also, I’m not sure how to put this nicely, but Bieber doesn’t seem very… smart, either. I watched an interview of him on Ellen and he couldn’t say a single sentence without a “like” or “um” or “uh”. And I don’t think what he did manage to say was very coherent either. I’m not hating on him because I’m sure there are other celebrities and even K-Pop idols who aren’t very articulate, but I feel that he especially does not possess much of a personality beyond what he is told to say by his producers/managers/etc. That doesn’t have to do with his music or talent though, just something I observed.

    So, actually, I feel that it’s a bit presumptuous to say that Justin Bieber is the ideal of K-Pop or beyond the ideal of K-Pop. American Pop and K-Pop are two vastly different genres and it’s kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Like you said, every group in K-Pop could be ruined if their agency abandons them, regardless of how talented they are. Bieber, on the other hand, could lose all of his talent and still be popular due to his name and celebrity status alone, just like other celebrities in American pop culture (the Kardashians?) While the two may have similarities each have their pros and cons compared to the other.

    • okay, addressing the point about Mr. Bieber not being able to perform things like Lucifer, I think it is (a) the genre (b) the age. Yes, you bring you very valid point of comparing apples to oranges, but I still think beneath it all, there are still fundamental similarities, because after all, what is the difference between a Korean girl and an American fangirl? What can attract both of them? That was mainly what I was comparing, not exactly the genres themselves. (It’s a good thing that unless Mr. Bieber suffers a grievous incident, he won’t be able to ‘lose talent’) Hmm.. in fact, I cannot point to any boy group or male performer in the West who would comfortably be able to perform Lucifer or RDD. Though they are both ‘pop’, they demand different things of performers.

      Next, when SHINee got around to Lucifer and RDD, most members were already of age (Taemin in RDD was clearly not). Even then.. I cannot really say Onew had much sex appeal either and he is the oldest (! personal opinion! don’t hit me! it was the wiping-the-nose-scene that made think that!). Mr. Bieber is in a transitioning period, so I’m sure once we give it some time, he will be crooning weird euphemisms.

      http://www.callmepatricia.com/2011/09/12/are-k-pop-idols-stupid/ <– good article written by Patricia about the smartness of kpop idols. Hmm.. I have to say that Ke$ha isn't particularly impressive in interviews either but she is a very good songwriter and composer nonetheless. Paris Hilton, everyone says she is dumb, but really, she is the one rolling in money. All of her foibles = money, all of her perfumes = money, her clothing line = money. I mean, we all like to think that she just willy-nilly slaps her name on everything, but did you know that her debut album as a singer was actually met with high praise from critics? o.0 Lady Gaga spills out intelligence in interviews, but then, sometimes I get the feeling that she is making things out of a void and not really being 'intellectual'. Eh, so I stay away from celebrity intelligence.

      Mr. Bieber is pretty cocky.. I remember before his debut, I was watching a video where he was still in middle school, flirting with someone who was already 18ish (Esmee Denters? Remember her, anyone??).. but I find his cocky to be endearing instead of jackass. He was also on an episode of that 70s show, I believe or some other show, and for some reason I watched Behind the Scenes, and there he was extremely cocky, trying to flirt with another older woman T.T

      okay, to sum up this enormous comment, thank you for pulling out those points! I wanted to show that in a lot of ways, Justin Bieber is scarily analogous to what kpop tries to achieve, but however, they do have fundamental differences as you have pointed out and how I have pointed out (relative power of the agencies). However, I do stand by what I say when I say that he is beyond the ideal of kpop. I guess this could be misconstrued as Mr. Bieber IS the ideal of kpop and more, but that is NOT what it means.. it more means that Mr. Bieber has achieved what most kpop tries to achieve, but yet he is something a bit more and really cannot fit in the category of 'ideal kpop', hence the 'beyond.' XD confusing, right?

      Michelle

  2. 2 things: All kpop groups have had that cute period in the beginning of their debuts and I mean like really old groups too. Just look at ss501 old songs, they are all trying to be cute in the videos… so how can you say that kpop groups are trying to be like justin bieber? it’s more like justin bieber is trying to be cute like kpop groups… and second as you can now understand kpop has always been cute and innocent and they are not just “trying”. You don’t really seem to understand the culture there.. to be cute is something that is popular there. SNSD is not just trying to be cute in their videos, they just dress in cute clothes that are really popular in their country. Why do you think they would dress and sing like that if that wasn’t what was “in” in there country?

    Sorry, I just get angry when people don’t understand kpop and it’s really annoying when people are saying that they are trying to be like justin bieber when thats how they have always been since a loooong time before justin bieber was a singer… -.-

    • and likewise, I get angry when people misread. I’m actually not angry, more exasperated. I’m NOT trying to say kpop is imitating Justin Bieber, OR Justin Bieber is imitating kpop. I am saying that some of Mr. Bieber’s traits are analogous to what is sought after kpop. Just because I am comparing some of his traits does not imply or even suggest that either performer is mooching off the other. As I commented before, fangirls will be fangirls, whether they are American or whether they are Korean.

      Second, I understand kpop has been always cute and innocent.. Where did I say it wasn’t? When I said, “kpop tries to be cute and innocent”, did I say that “it fails to be cute and innocent”?? Please do not put words in my writing! They DO try to be cute.. idols aren’t just automatically cute most of the time, they need to work at it.

      thank you for stopping by anyway!!
      Michelle

      • one more thing.. I think this is actually sort of a classic case of “You mentioned kpop and Justin Bieber in the same sentence, you must die” T___T really.. so many people can easily make fun of one liking Mr. Bieber and one liking kpop. -.-

        Michelle

  3. Quoting something I read on twitter:

    “Why do so many Kpop fans make fun of Justin Bieber. Kpop is full of Justin Biebers, there’s one in each group!”

    /sigh

    Michelle, do you ever get the feeling that people only hate on Justin Bieber because they’re joining some kind of bandwagon — because that’s the feeling I get. I ask them why they hate him, and the answer is always the same. He’s girly, he has sucky songs, he’s gay

    Oh my favourite

    He’s talentless. Especially when this comes from Kpop fans.

    People give Taemin excuses when he debuted, that he was really young, his voice was still growing, it’s not his fault. And it’s understandable. But compare him to Bieber was even younger, still he could do it. People talk about how puberty is going to destroy his voice — I disagree. My brothers a singer, and although yes, he went through a blip during his puberty years, after he hit it his voice became fuller. Yeah it was rough, but he got through. Justin Bieber, whislt not a phenomenal singer, isn’t a bad one at all. He’s good and even though people find his feminine voice grating, well… I like it? I mean, there are definitely people in K-Pop who outsing him, I mean I’m thinking in SJ even outside KRY Sungmin/Donghae could maybe outsing him — but they’re 25, he’s what? 18. Taemin might be able to outsing him now too. But considering the intense training Taemin went to, and the fact Biebz didn’t have much to begin with, well… I’m just going to go ahead and call Bieber talented.

    Sorry if this was long and obnoxious. I’m not a fan of Bieber, but the hate he gets sometimes is SO irrational it bothers me. blergh. I think I just ranted more than anything here.

    • lol, while reading your comment, I kept thinking, “I TOTALLY AGREE I TOTALLY AGREE” ^^~~

      Yep, I feel like that too, it used to be really cool to hate on him but now it just feels like repetitions of the same old joke. I also get really peeved when kpop fans say that JB sucks as well.. did you hear the fake ‘rumor’ that Justin Bieber was signing with SM? kpop fans were outraged and they were like, “Changmin and Yunho and etc etc in the same company with this talentless jerk?!” The point you bring up about Korean performers’ intense training is correct too.. Bieber never had anything like that and within months, he became a pop culture icon around the world :P and despite intense training of Taemin, as I said above, his debut wasn’t that wow-ing either. Also, in a lot of ways kpop is more “gay”, more “girly” and has “more sucky songs” than Mr. Bieber.. I also despise it when kpop fans say JB is girly but then flip around their double standards for Asians.. ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE CAUCASIAN KPOP FANS .___. that just defies all logic too.

      sometimes I don’t really get antifan culture.. if you hate it that much, why bother with it? If a lot of people ignore it, it will eventually go away..

      I’m glad to see you think the way you do! :3 acknowledging JB has talent does not mean we are Beliebers, rather .. we are just rational people T___T who don’t just jump to stereotypes to make our judgments..

      thanks for stopping by!!
      Michelle

  4. Girl, I’m about to say I’m crying rainbows *phrase learnt on kpop fandom XD* about finding your site! I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the fact that you are able to see within each fandom *western & korean* his attributes & flaws -or chances of improvements to give it a better name-!!!
    I really get annoyed by the fact that even within some of the kpop fans I get along, there’s this absurd comparison that, “oh I’m so sick of kpop, they are only pretty, good dancers and sometimes good singers, etc I’m going back to listen indie music, that’s real music! because they write lyrics that aren’t crap & play instruments, etc etc etc”. It’s like, what the heck? What were you expecting when you arrived here? Find the Bee Gees? ABBA? Eric Clapton? Man, that kind of logic it’s so weird! I can’t compel it since I like a lot of genres & types of melodies, I don’t give too much importance to the lyrics hence I’m pretty aware I’ll never learn russian, turk or korean, so it’s pretty much about an average feeling of the song. Even with the voices & interpretative quality! Some musicians are about to be an adquired taste! And then, you can’t get enough of them!
    To be honest, I loved your post! This may sound weird but, I think I only recognize 1 or 2 Bieber’s songs? Yet, I do identify who he is, who he dates, his late scandal, etc. Just as much I identify most of SM singers and such. And got to know both due television -which I dont watch much-. /want to mention I’m latinoamerican!/ So I’m somehow trying to imply, both are phenomenons of our culture. If Kpop will get global? I don’t know, but they are making huge advances, they are already on teen’s magazines -aka the source of ‘knowledge’ for average teen & preteen kids-. I wish I had seen any of my beloved jpop bands even MENTIONED on any magazine when I was a teenager. I used to think, that BSB, Spice Girls & similars where the only pop bands IN THE WHOLE WORLD! Now teens even if they don’t get to like kpop, they do know that there are other artists making pop music in different languages and that they do not necessarily are Gaga’s tropicalized versions.
    I do agree completely about KPOP aiming to have a similar status to what Bieber’s achieved. Especially for the money : /. And influence on culture,.-soft power?-
    Will be looking forward for your articles n_n.
    Have a nice day!

    • welcome!! I am so honored to hear those words from you :)

      I agree totally about the soft power. Did you hear how the Korean government sent embassies calendars with idols’ pictures in it? To spread the soft power of Korea.. which I thought was so tacky > be catchy. eh, indie music can be good and can be bad.. I think people like what they like and it’s useless trying to argue this is better than that. I think why some people say “indie music” is the best is because not a lot of people listen to it and there’s so many indie artists that it’s kind of impossible to compare your music tastes, so they feel really comfortable telling others that indie music is the best.

      Latin America is very nice to foreign artists, so I’m happy you guys are getting more exposure to kpop (like JYJ in Peru!).. but in US it’s totally another story.. the only foreign people who can get recognition are usually Latin-American (like Shakira), Canadian (Bieber), or British (Leona Lewis).. and they all sing in English.. so I’m afraid that unless kpop/jpop artists sing in English, they won’t make it at all in America, sadly :(

      you have a nice day too!!!! thanks for stopping by! :) I think you followed me on tumblr ^^~~
      Michelle

  5. One thing that really, really, REALLY irks me is that on Infinite’s “Baby” dance battle… almost all the time, the top rated comments say something about “Not hating Justin Bieber”. I want to keyboard-smash so hard because Infinite’s own resident “girl member” is practically subjugated to the same kind of…. reactions towards justin (if not more than taemin, no joke).
    I’m betting it is the bandwagon thing thats onto “hating” Justin Bieber. It seems to become more of a joke than actual hate tho. xD I think people now do acknowledge hes reached puberty, etc., but its become such a running gag, people still slap it onto macros and stuff.
    I think another problem is simply because he’s clearly, obviously does NOT have an excuse to be “slightly feminine” in appearance. I hate to say it, but with the amount of pretty boys in Kpop/Jpop, it seems to blend into the background for someone to be slightly “feminine”. But in America, his “not so American manly” manliness
    Side note… I have never been to a suburban town except for the occasional big-time event, so I don’t always get the “suburbia” America jokes… care to explain?
    Have you watched Nigahiga’s video on Justin Bieber?

    • no, I don’t like Nigahiga much. he bothers me ><"

      suburbia jokes.. hmm think sheltered privileged white kids who are a bit trashy and think they're the shit. think manicured lawns and mini-McMansions and small-town politics and a town where all the residents love stopping by the neighborhood Starbucks. we hang out at the mall, we have lots of underage keg parties and slip off to frat partays. that's us, man! but it really all depends on the context of the joke, but that's the general impression of suburbia :) sans all the drinking and sexing, Mr. Bieber actually fits the suburbia stereotype quite well.

      yes, I agree about Mr. Bieber having no excuse to be feminine.. poor kid.. it happens to about every young male star (cough Jesse McCartney), always accused of being girly.

      Michelle

  6. Yeah yeah yeah~ It’s so true, what you’ve said. And I have wondered for so long as well – Jusin Bieber does appear to be an “ideal” or at least a typical boy for Kpop idol industry.

    However, there is a huge part missing. Justin Bieber is not a dancer. As we all know, Kpop idol groups are in only two types: dancing ones, and band ones. And the latter is only new and for a very small portion. Basically, to be a boy idol, you HAVE to be great at dancing. Look at SHINee. Look at TVXQ. Look at 2PM. Look at TeenTop. Look at U-Kiss. Look at… Look at anyone. One great trait of all these idol groups are they dance while singing / performing, and they dance in sync – some groups are even famous and extremely popular because they dance so incredibly in sync – Infinite is a great example.

    What’s more, there hasn’t been any one single boy idol as an individual idol himself – they all come in groups. Even when you look at those seemingly individual idols like Kim Hyun Joong, they WERE in boy groups. There’s hardly any boy idol that debut as an individual idol – or I can say, the sense of “idol” doesn’t exist if a boy debuts by himself. If Taemin had debuted all by himself, without the support of every other member from SHINee – wait, there wouldn’t be a SHINee then – and sings on stage all by himself with his slightly light and high emotional voice, not even dancing… I don’t think Taemin would be the successful and cute Taemin we know today then.
    That’s something Justin Bieber doesn’t have either – he’s all alone. Being young and all alone as an artist, I have to argue that Justin Bieber may never be an ideal Kpop boy idol.

    But yeah again, you can argue with me :) I didn’t intend to make you mad by the way, sorry if I did. :) And if you are interested, would you like to come visit my site to take a look? ^_^

    • I’m not mad. You said valid points. But I’m not going to bother refuting them.. the only thing I say is, he is an ideal in some of the fundamental respects but in the end, he is not the ideal, he’s much more than a typical ideal kpop idol.. so I really didn’t make the argument that JB is the ideal kpop model.

      I will check it out now; thanks for stopping by!
      Michelle

  7. nice blog. well said about kpop and beiber, i think kpop is really going toward the cute looks and style, which kinda annoy me, cuz most groups now look too much the same. beiber is still young so singing live takes time. unlike most kpop bands still lip sync or use that thing they use to make them sound good live, no matter how long they have sung. when i herd shinee remove the MR i was happy that they did but then it didn’t sound so good. kpop to me is really attached to american style, expanding it to make it something that seems good and catchy, but then thats all to it, catchy melody made with a lot of computerized sounds.

    • ^^; mmm I agree, but I understand why SHINee doesn’t sound too good MR-removed because their choreo is rather difficult. However, with TVXQ Homin, they are REALLY good, even singing well when dancing vigorously! I’d advise for you to check out their MR removed perfs of ‘Keep Your Head Down’… they’re shocking o.0 how good they are!

      I really appreciate it &
      thanks for stopping by (:
      Michelle

      • estoy de acuerdo con tomas que a fan de comparar un grupo de kpop de corea con justin bieber de EUA disculpa michell pero se te nota a leguas que eres una belieber y es comprencible que te sientas alterada y enojada por los comentarios de terceras personas seamos realistas kpop es otro tipo de musica por el simple hecho de estar en un distinto entorno cultural si me explico justin biber es mas conocido por l la facilidad de medios de cumunicas cion y claro bien dicho tiene mucho potencial ya que llego por su propio esfuerzo tal como los jóvenes de kpop los cuales cantan en distinto idioma y eso termina perjudicando de cierto modo su publicidad en los medios justin bieber es una persona comprendo que tiene valor propio por ser independiente por su popularidad y vuelvo a recaltar es distinta cultura y medios en los que estan los grupos de kpop porlo general estan hechos por numerosas cantidades en distintas ocaciones y eso es por la cultura en la que han crecido y lo que el publico coreano pide ademas de que se a criticado tanto el kpop como a justin bieber por usar amplificadores de voz para mejorar sus entonaciones … que si justin que no que son kpop tanto justin bieber como kpop han tenido una ayudadita en cuanto en sus conciertos y producciones por distintas razones mas sin embargo no dejan de ser sus voces y no dejan de ser las personas que son en mi punto de vista mientras ustedes discuten que si el kpop es mejor que justin es mucho mas popular y tiene mas fans a pesar de su corta edad cada uno de ellos esta dando lo mejor de si para salir adelante y complacer asus fans quizas muchos no tengan los recursos y otro grasias a dios los tienen por sus esfuerzos para poder crecer y dar aconocer su musica a todo a quel que los escuche un mensaje como never say never o un no te rindas persevera y sige adelante es lo que hase que uno se haga fan de el cantante por el simple hecho de sentirse identificado y el placer de ellos mismo que su mensaje fue correspondido eso vale mas que todo el dinero del mundo ami consideracion ellos en estos momentos estaran obeservando el revuelo que arman por defender asus idolos y eso es lindo pero eso de llegar a los insultos y de decir que uno es mejor por esto y este es menos por esto verguenza deberia de darles es musica y tiene valor aunque lleve tiempo de haber salido al mercado y su valor no esta en si fue la mas vendida o sonada sino en el sentido y objetivo por lo que fue hecha y el objetivos son todos ustedes :D las fans llegar a sus corazones aunque realmente es mercadotecnia y ese es otropunto aunque por otro lado no deja ser lo que les acabo de mencionar relajense y disfruten de la musica
        de hecho antes de conocer kpop yo me converti en fan de justin bieber y lo sigo siendo una belieber mas aunque cuando escuche kpop me gusto mucho y tan bien me fui por el gusto de la musica asitica quieran o no comprender cada uno tiene su valo y objeto de ser asi que los amo alos dos y espero que dejen de discutir tanto que los dos valen lo mismo.

        • so, I think this disagrees mildly with what I said, but whatever. From what I see from the Google Translate, I think you’re trying to say they are different, so stop comparing them. Hmm.. I think it’s interesting to look at different things and comparing though.. they may not necessarily be the same, but it’s nice thinking about things from another perspective, no?

          thanks for stopping by!
          Michelle

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